Talk:Marinid dynasty

Merging

The merge of Merinid dynasty and Marinid isn't controversial. No doubt we can agree on this. But which should be the name used for the final article? Donama 05:29, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Marinid or Merinid?

Which should be the name used in the English wikipedia, taking into account that there many alternate spellings in the other languages (see Marinid article for the other language links). Please add your support or oppose below.

Merge into Marinid, "Marinids" or "Marinid dynasty"

• Support because this is the name Encyclopaedia Brittanica use and I found it more often in my English-based research (note what happens in a google fight of Marinid vs Merenid) Donama 05:29, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support in Marinid. I don't speak Arabic, but I believe "A" is stronger than "E" in this language. But since I don't speak English either, I may be wrong, when you translate Arabic into English. But A are always better than E... Lapaz 01:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC) I'll also add that we should'nt merge a "tribe" (see Marinid) in a "dynasty"; the reverse is all right though, since the dynasty supposedly comes from the tribe. Lapaz 01:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Article title format

Now please choose what format you think the article title should take. Donama 05:29, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

M*rinids

• Weak support Donama 05:29, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't matter

…As long as all the redirects are provided. - Jmabel | Talk 15:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

After merge

Merged into Marinid. On advice of myself, User:Jmabel, User:Lapaz and User:Drini.

But I have put some of the info I'm not 100% is merged in HTML comments at the bottom in case I missed something. — Донама 05:49, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

References

Can anyone point so some reputable references for this topic? Thanks in advance! — Донама 02:02, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

removed internal link

I removed the wikipedia link for Marabuts. It leads to an irrelevant entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.191.153.118 (talk) 18:29, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

modern descendant?

'The actual Head of the dynasty is Mark Tabili that it comes down from the Sultan Abu Tabil' - does this refer to a present-day descendant? If this info is worth including (no reason why it shouldn't be, if genuine), it could do with being more clearly worded and put in a section of its own, and sourced. (In case this helps, English 'actual' does not mean the same as French 'actuel' - I suspect the word you want is 'current' or 'present-day'.)Mikeindex (talk) 09:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Marinid dynasty vs. Morocco

Marinid dynasty, was a country as weel a dynasty, but a former dynasty of Morocco.Bokpasa 21:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

First, thanks to write an understandable sentence in English.

2nd, thanks to give us, not a source since I don't think that a source for such affirmation can exist, but a logic for your approach and an explanation for your (supposed, but inexistent) argumentation.

3rd, thanks to avoid editing articles without discussion, based only on your opinions.

You have been blocked and warned before for vandalism on articles related to Morocco , and you're still acting the same way despite that. Please stop acting this way, you are deteriorating WP.

Omar-Toons (talk) 22:38, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Replies:

• 1st Marinids were a nomadic tribe (According to Ibn Battuta)
• 2nd 1240/ 1 (643 AH) attacks on the Almohad Empire (Histoire des Berbères of Ibn Khaldoun, Paris 1978, ISBN 2-7053-0047-3, page 62)
  • Why thirty years before his succession supesta they fought?
• 3 rd, Ronda, Algeciras and Gibraltar, was part of This Empire, or you think Gibraltar are part of Morocco as Ceuta?
• 4th find some of Bu-Tata.... was another contry....
• 5th thanks to avoid editing articles without discussion, based only on your opinions.

You have been blocked and warned before for vandalism on articles related to Morocco

• 6th Whay it`s Marinid Capitel? http://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/25092/1/Martinez_Enamorado_Capitel_merini.pdf Capitel meriní, de Virgilio Martínez Enamorado, 2006
• 7th Why you do not write about sufi and jews? http://www.jafi.org.il/JewishAgency/English/Jewish+Education/Compelling+Content/Jewish+History/1300+BCE++1996+CE/
• 8th Al-Binya, La Ciudad Palantina Meriní de Algeciras, de Antonio Torremocha Silva y Otros, 1.999

• 9th Why in 1274 the Marinid king Abu Yusuf wrote to Aragon king: «Manifiesta cosa sia a tots com Nos aben Yusuf Miarammollin Senyor de Marrochs e Feza e Suyamoza, e de ses pertenencias, Senyor deis Benimarins... ab vos noble en Jaume, per la gracia de Deu Rey D'Arago, é de Malloques, é de Valencia, Comte de Barcelona... E puis que romanga aquella pau entréis votre filis é los nostres, en tal manera que Vos nos facats ayuda á pendre Cepta, é que nos enviets deu naus armades é deu galees,...». Original source... here you see Marrochs (Marrakech, city) is one think and Benimarins are the country...Bokpasa 14:57, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Kingdom of Fez, Saadian, acording to Omar-Toons

If i understand you correctly you're contesting that this dynasty was Moroccan, regarding that:

1. 1st: Irrelevant
2. 2nd: Irrelevant
3. 3rd: So 3rd Reich and the German empire were not German since they contained Austria & Alsace?. And France was not France befroe 1962 since it contained Algeria?
4. 4th: Irrelevant
5. 5th: same for you and your Ips
6. 6th: Unintelligible
7. 7th: Add something relevant to the article about Jews & Sufism, if you see fit.
8. 8th: ??? so?
9. 9th: So He wrote that he's lord of Fez and Morocco (I.E Marrakesh). What does that prove? The empire was composed of various Kingdoms, among which those of Fez and Morocco (Marrakesh) were the most prominent

P.S: This is EN:wiki, make some efforts in finding English sources and writing intelligible English. Thank you. Tachfin (talk) 19:58, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• • No!!!, this are two countries....
  • Not!, Ibn Jaldun wrote about 2 countries, Marinids and Almohads, not only dynasties..
  • Irrelevant!
  • Find it!
  • Irrelevant
  • Read!
  • Read!
  • Read!
  • Unintelligible
• Republic of Salé
• 8 safar 943 (1536), battle of Bu Aqba, Saadían vs Wattasis (http://books.google.es/books?id=uOEHYN5DATIC&pg=PA330&dq=Mosqu%C3%A9e+des+Andalous&hl=es&ei=iAdDTs-IKsmc-waBs_XFCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false Familias de Fez: ss. XV-XVII Escrito por Fernando R. Mediano, Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas, ISBN 84-00-074534 {{isbn}}: Check isbn value: checksum (help)-X, 1995, page 103)

All these things were discussed on Talk:History of Morocco (sections 4 to 16), Bokpasa being the only one to oppose the consensus and the common interpretation of the sources.

Omar-Toons (talk) 10:21, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

@Bokpassa: I'm sorry but your poor understanding of English will make it very difficult to communicate. Also, you should reply below other people's comments not in the middle because it gets messy and impossible to read.

It seems your points have been thoroughly debunked in the discussion linked by Omar-Toons, There is no reason to revisit it. Regards Tachfin (talk) 22:52, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Bokpasa, I see that you are using a map that I extracted from a book, out of its context, to justify you PoV. Ok, let's play the same game. Do you think that, on the map above, the country represented in blue is not the same than the one represented in red?

The answer is, definitely, it is the same country.

According to your logic, the kingdoms of Castille-Aragon and Spain are not the same thing... don't you think?

Same thing about Napoleonic France and the Republic of France... isn't it?

Well, I quit playing, it was just to show you how illogical are you PoV edits and how nobody can accept that (but I don't think that you will understand that since we are repeating that since 2006, but you continue you disruptive editing and edit-warring without paying attention to that. Unfortunately, I'm now believing that a UserRfC is the only way to find a solution to this problem.

Omar-Toons (talk) 23:51, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Are you say 3 years=40 years?? or civil war=invasion?

PS: This map of Spain it`s wrong, Spain was too Ifni, Tarfaya, Ecuatorial Guinea, Canary Islands, Ceuta, Melilla, Protectorate of Tetuan, and Western Sahara in this time!Bokpasa 12:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

OMG, that's worst than what I thought... --Omar-Toons (talk) 16:38, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

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Banu Marin are Auresian

the Banu marin are from Aurès.41.249.85.86 (talk) 18:55, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I see no sources supporting your opinion presented here. Compared to the Britannica source that states, "Marīnid dynasty, also called Banū Marīn, Amazigh (Berber) dynasty that replaced Almohad rule in Morocco and, temporarily, in other parts of northern Africa during the 13th–15th century." --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:06, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Accoding to the famous historian and sociologist Ibn Khaldoun, the Banu Marin alongside the Zianids, are a sub-branch of the Wassin that originates from the Aurès. So that's the widely accepted theory about the Berbers.

This is the reference I provided following the recent change:

http://books.google.ca/books?ei=8AG9TI64HsH78AbnyNj0Dg&ct=result&hl=fr&id=EQJFAAAAIAAJ&dq=Les+civilisations+de+l%27Afrique+du+nord%3A+Berb%C3%A8res-Arabes+Turcs.&q=ouacine+aur%C3%A8s+

I am talking about Ibn Khaldun because he dedicated a sizeable part of his life in tracing berber genealogies. His book, history of the berbers is considered the most complete book about the Berbers.

Cordially 41.143.227.252 (talk) 19:15, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

I am seeing no mention of the Marinids on that page. I would suggest you show the quote indicating the Marinids/Mérinides came from "Algeria", else this is simply original research and will be deleted. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:09, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

That was just a preview, take a look at this link:

https://books.google.co.ma/books?id=Vl5YrF16t-gC&pg=PA48&dq=banu+marin+aur%C3%A8s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nZGUVLzbFITgaMvmgbAP&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=banu%20marin%20aur%C3%A8s&f=false

Moroccan geographer Al Idrissi reports that the Banu Marin lived between Tiaret and Tlemcen.

Cordially 41.143.227.252 (talk) 21:08, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

The article's continuous vandalism

What about this issue? would someone please take necessary measures on OmarToons? he seems unsatisfied with reality (that in fact banu marins originated from the highlands between Tlemcen and Tiaret). I hope this comes to an end. Cordially 41.140.40.80 (talk) 08:08, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

There a well sourced section (Marinid dynasty#Origins) dealing with the origins of the Marinids ; it says the following:

• Marinids are originated from Ifriqiya ;
• In the 11th c., they moved to south-eastern Morocco ;
• In the 12th c., they moved to the north-west of present-day Algeria ;
• In the 13th c., they moved to northern Morocco ;

Then, that doesn't make them "of Algerian descent", espacially when we know that all the areas where they settled in the Western Maghreb from the 11th to the 13th c. were part of the -Moroccan- Almoravid then Almohad Empires.

Regards,

--Omar-toons (talk) 15:17, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I am Moroccan, i know the history of my country, thank you.105.157.8.97 (talk) 15:27, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

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It was Already mentioned.

Hi, I've already provided the link sourcing the Algerian origin of the Merinids in a previous talk related section. http://books.google.ca/books?ei=8AG9TI64HsH78AbnyNj0Dg&ct=result&hl=fr&id=EQJFAAAAIAAJ&dq=Les+civilisations+de+l%27Afrique+du+nord%3A+Berb%C3%A8res-Arabes+Turcs.&q=ouacine+aur%C3%A8s+ Regards 196.117.101.240 (talk) 22:21, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi, this is a 1909 book, a 110 years old book can legitimately be considered as being outdated. Also, do you have the number of the page that is supporting an Algerian origin please ? Thanks.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 22:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the information; Ibn Khaldun and al Idrissi , who are regarded as the greatest historians of their respective era, report that the Banu Marin, a subbranch of the banu wassin, originate from Algeria. These two were the only ones who reported minutely on the Berber's history.

https://books.google.co.ma/books?id=Vl5YrF16t-gC&pg=PA48&dq=banu+marin+aur%C3%A8s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nZGUVLzbFITgaMvmgbAP&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=banu%20marin%20aur%C3%A8s&f=false

Regards 102.101.105.121 (talk) 23:38, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

With regard to this revert:

The IP is claiming that Piquet says that they lived in both Zibans (page 370) and Ifrikiya (page 364). I have checked the source and there's no mention of either the Zibans on page 370 or Ifriqiya on page 364.

@Wikaviani: The page number that you asked for is 136. Here's the part (in French) that supports what's already mentioned in the article.

Abd el-Moumen vit bientôt les Ouemannou l'appeler à leur tète : ils étaient alors débordés par les tribus Ouacine (Zénètes de la deuxième race), qui, repoussées du Zab par les Arabes, remontaient vers Tlemcen..... Ces Ouacines sont les Abd-el-Ouad, les Toudjines et les Beni Merine qui, dans les siècles suivants, joueront un rôle considérable en Berbérie.

M.Bitton (talk) 00:05, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

References

Minor corrections to the list of rulers

I noticed some minor inconsistencies (in the names and dates) between the list of rulers on this page and the list provided by Bosworth's "New Islamic Dynasties", which is a standard reference, and likewise some inconsistencies between the list and the individual pages for each sultan (which tend to rely on that same book for reference). There's no explicit indication of what other reference the list on this page would be based on, so I'm guessing these are just minor mistakes. I've made corrections and I've added a citation at the beginning of the section just for a little more transparency. If there are other sources providing different dates or names, maybe bring it up here so it can be sorted out. Cheers, Robert Prazeres (talk) 05:14, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

October 2020

@TheseusHeLl: I don't understand what the issue is regarding the persistent removal of sourced content that complements the rest of the article (in no way does it contradict any of it since it's simply stating where they came from before frequenting certain areas). The weight issue only comes into play when the sources talk about the same thing, but this isn't the case since the sources I added mention their origin (the part that I added) as well as the areas they first frequented after leaving their homeland, while the others only mention the areas they first frequented. You removed the content about their origin that was there for years, under the pretext that it wasn't properly sourced, and now that it is, you're looking for another excuse to remove it. M.Bitton (talk) 01:59, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, I agree with the above; I'm not sure what's wrong with the added material. Le Tourneau is a heavily cited author in the literature about Morocco, so I see no problem. If there is newer research challenging this information then that could be provided in counterpoint, or if the information has somehow been discredited more clearly then that could be discussed here with sources. Otherwise it's just part of the historical background of the tribe. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 02:46, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

@M.Bitton:"I don't understand what the issue is regarding the persistent removal of sourced content that complements the rest of the article (in no way does contradict any of it since it's simply stating where they came from before frequenting certain areas)."

It doesn't complement the rest of the article, it contradicts it.

• Did you read Shatzmiller's Marīnids, in: Encyclopaedia of Islam. Or you're saying this without even reading it? She said in her entry, "The historian Ibn Khaldun, their most famous contemporary, reproduced in his Kitab al-'Ibar the genealogical descent, largely mythical, of the Marinid tribes in the context of the Zanata family, and designates the desert between Figuig and Sidjilmasa as the terrain which they originally frequented. It is to be believed that the arrival of Arab tribes in the region from the south during the 5th and 6th/11th-12th centuries was the cause of various demographic mutations which obliged the Marinid tribes to proceed towards the north and to settle in the plains of the north-west of what is now Algeria." I don't see any Biskra in this text.
• Did you read Powers's Law, Society, and Culture in the Maghrib, "Originally nomadic shepherds and breeders of sheep, the Marinids, Berbers of the Zanata tribe, frequented the area between Figuig and Sijilmasa until the fifth/eleventh and sixth/twelfth centuries, when the arrival of Arab tribes in the region triggered demographic disturbances that compelled them to migrate to the northern part of the Maghrib." I don't see any Biskra in this text.
• Did you read Allen James Fromherz's Ibn Khaldun "The Marinids, or the banu Marin, the founding Marinid tribal confederation, originated in the region surrounding the improbably remote oasis village of Figuig." I don't see any Biskra in this text.
• Did you read Abu-Nasr's A History of the Maghrib in the Islamic Period, "The Marinids Like most Zanata Berbers, the Banu Marin, the founders of the Marinid state, led a pastoral life until they bacame involved in political conflicts with the Almohads. Until the end of the twelfth century this tribe roamed the area between Figuig and the basin of the Mulwiyya, moving northwards during the spring and summer seasons in search of pasturage, and returing to south for winter." I don't see any Biskra in this text.

"You removed the content that was there for years, under the pretext that it wasn't properly sourced and now that it is, you're looking for another excuse to remove it."

Yes it was outdated (1909) and the second was a sociologist's non-specialist work.

"the content that was there for years"

Being there for years is not an argument. Are you implying that removing an outdated 1909 work is a bad thing? Or just because it was there for years we should leave as it is?

What you're trying to do is called hijacking. We can't present different views as the same view just because you're thinking "that it complements the rest of the article". Your sources say that they were first in Biskra than went to the west after the 11th century. The sources that I use say that they were first in the (Figuig and Sijilmasa region) than went to the north after the 11th century. You don't see the contradiction? -TheseusHeLl (talk) 02:59, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

@R Prazeres: A quick look at Shatzmiller's Bibliography of her entry (in p:574) will tell you why it's more extensive and reliable, than an 1969 work about the "Almohad movement" that uses two sources (Ben Cheneb 1921 and Rawd al-Qirtas) to present the origins of the Marinids. -TheseusHeLl (talk)